Tomorrow’s World Today® Podcast

Reimagining Reactors: How Research Powers Nuclear Energy

• Rita Baranwal - EPRI • Season 2 • Episode 33

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(0:00) Welcome to the Tomorrow's World Today podcast. (0:04) We sit down with experts, world-changing innovators, (0:07) creators, and makers to explore how they're taking action (0:10) to make tomorrow's world a better place for technology, (0:14) science, innovation, sustainability, the arts, and more. (0:18) On this episode, host George Davison, (0:21) who is also the host of the TV series Tomorrow's World Today, (0:24) sits down with Dr. Rita Baranwal, (0:26) the former VP of Nuclear at the Electric Power Research Institute.
(0:31) Dr. Baranwal discusses nuclear energy as part of the green energy future (0:35) and believes advanced manufacturing, like 3D printing, (0:39) will revolutionize nuclear. (0:40) She also stresses curiosity, resilience, and above all, innovation. (0:46) Welcome, Rita.
(0:47) Thank you. (0:48) Well, I'm hoping that you're going to share all your life stories with us today (0:52) so that our audience can pick up on how you became who you are (0:57) in your professional world. (0:59) I'm looking forward to our conversation.
(1:01) Thank you. (1:02) All right, so let's chat, first of all, about your organization, (1:06) Electric Power Research Initiative. (1:08) What do you do? (1:10) So Electric Power Research Institute is a nonprofit research (1:14) and development organization really serving the benefit of society, (1:18) and we focus on research and development for the energy sector.
(1:24) We look at renewables. (1:25) We look at fossil. (1:27) We look at nuclear.
(1:28) And I, as the vice president of nuclear, (1:31) oversee all of the nuclear sector's activities. (1:33) That sounds exciting. (1:35) So you get to see over everything.
(1:37) So at your organization, can we talk a little bit about (1:41) where are you headed in the future? (1:44) So in your field, with your title, what role does innovation play in the future? (1:50) Oh, it's very important. (1:52) We need to continually innovate in the nuclear field (1:56) so that we can continue to improve operations, reduce costs, (2:01) and stay on top of our game, essentially. (2:04) It is crucial that we continue to innovate, (2:07) and we think it's so important that we actually have an organization (2:11) that focuses really just on innovation, (2:14) and we are actually looking forward to having a global innovation forum (2:18) early next year in London where we're inviting different, (2:22) I would say diverse folks to come and help us innovate for the nuclear sector.
(2:27) All right. (2:28) Well, well done. (2:29) That sounds good.
(2:30) Can you talk a little bit about your specific position and what you do? (2:36) So I am responsible for the entire nuclear sector at EPRI, (2:41) and EPRI works with its members. (2:44) So we have members across the world that pay a membership fee (2:48) so that they can get access to our research and development data and results (2:52) so that they can continue to operate efficiently, (2:56) or if they happen to encounter an issue, (2:58) we've probably done some research in that area (3:00) that can help them solve the problem that they might be encountering. (3:03) So that's part of what we do, (3:06) and then we also go out and work to look at advanced nuclear, right? (3:11) And so we have a program called Advanced Nuclear Technology (3:13) where we are working with advanced nuclear developers (3:16) to help with eventual deployment of new nuclear technology all around the world.
(3:22) All right. (3:23) So tomorrow morning, I'm waking up as Rita, let's say. (3:26) What does my day look like? (3:29) Oh, boy.
(3:29) I will probably have a meeting to talk with my team. (3:35) So I have a few directors that report to me. (3:38) So we'll talk about, you know, what are we going to do for the week (3:41) or what have we done? (3:42) Have we encountered any hiccups that we need to go address? (3:45) Then I might have a meeting with one of my member CNOs, (3:49) so another chief nuclear officer, to talk about what EPRI has done for them (3:54) and what can we be doing better for them to meet their needs.
(3:56) I might have a meeting with my boss, who's the senior vice president at EPRI (4:01) and oversees not only nuclear but also all the other generation sources. (4:06) And I might have an all-hands meeting with my team, (4:09) so over 200 employees, and just talk about, you know, what's going on. (4:13) We're in the middle of making sure that everyone can transition back to the office.
(4:19) And so, you know, what does that look like? (4:22) Right, right. (4:23) It has been a little chaotic the last year and a half. (4:25) Just a bit, just a bit.
(4:27) Well, it sounds like you have an interesting position, (4:29) something that's going to definitely keep you active in a mental and physical capacity. (4:36) So can you run us back in time and talk with us a little bit (4:40) about how you got an interest in the field of nuclear? (4:45) Oh, that's actually an interesting story. (4:47) When I was in high school, I really didn't know what I wanted to pursue.
(4:52) I knew I wanted to go to college, but I didn't know what I wanted to pursue. (4:55) So I applied to schools that had good engineering programs, (4:58) because that's kind of the way that my parents were pushing me, (5:00) but that also had good arts programs because I thought, (5:03) I might want to pursue fashion design. (5:06) Then my freshman year, I toured a material science and engineering department (5:11) and fell in love with this instrument called a scanning electron microscope.
(5:15) And I said, I want to do whatever I can to work with that piece of equipment in my job. (5:20) So I went to get a bachelor's in material science of engineering, (5:24) went on to get my master's and my PhD in material science and engineering, (5:28) and did get to use that piece of equipment in my job. (5:32) And my first job out of graduate school happened to be at a nuclear facility.
(5:39) I wasn't seeking it out, but it just sort of coincided. (5:41) And it happened to be Bettis Atomic Power Laboratory in Pittsburgh. (5:45) I was developing advanced nuclear fuel for the U.S. Navy's aircraft carriers and submarines, (5:51) and I had the privilege of visiting Newport News Shipyard.
(5:55) That's an impressive site. (5:56) It was very impressive. (5:58) And I happened to be there when the Ronald Reagan was being constructed (6:02) and was able to stand inside the compartment where the reactor was going to go.
(6:07) And I realized that this little itty-bitty thing that I'm working on back in the laboratory in Pittsburgh, (6:12) this little bit of fuel, is going to help power this behemoth of a ship. (6:17) And that's really what convinced me to stay in this business, (6:20) that we work in an industry that's fueled by uranium that's so energy-dense. (6:28) It was really impressive.
(6:30) Now, if we fast-forward to today, I've got two snarky teenagers, (6:34) and I want them to inherit a world that is cleaner than it is today. (6:39) And nuclear power absolutely has always been a clean and green energy source (6:44) and will continue to be so, (6:46) so it needs to be part of the clean energy future that we've been talking about. (6:51) Well, I'm glad you're bringing that up because I have one snarky daughter teenager still left in my house, (7:01) and she's kind of curious about that part of the world too, you know, (7:06) sustainability, recycling, and, you know, power and generating energy is a, it's a field that's full of fossil fuels (7:17) and space fuels, right, and picking the best way to go is always a challenge.
(7:23) At least we have a blend to choose from today, right? (7:26) Exactly, exactly. It's good to have a diverse mix. (7:28) Yes, I mean, can you imagine, I mean, having like the Ronald Reagan as a aircraft carrier, (7:36) I mean, you couldn't really run that thing on coal, could you? (7:40) Not without, you know, getting detected often and having to come back into port (7:45) and having ships follow you with that fuel.
(7:47) Right, so there's all sorts of different energy sources that play different roles through the challenges. (7:53) So you look at your design problem and your logistics problems and you try to come up with solutions, right? (8:00) Right. (8:00) And that's kind of a fun way to look, it's a puzzle, and you've got to figure out the best way to go about it.
(8:08) So, and the same thing happens with our lives, right? (8:12) We're young, we're a puzzle, and how do we navigate it? (8:17) You have some young children as well, so we're going to try to reach back into that space a little more. (8:25) And maybe we could shed some light on how you got interested, but further back. (8:33) Like, was there something in high school that maybe, or maybe middle school, was there a person, was there a, what was it? (8:41) Can you go back and find a certain thing that ignited your imagination that worked for you? (8:47) Because if it's not there for your two children, it's maybe not there for mine right now.
(8:53) But was there one for you or two or something back in middle school or high school that triggered you? (8:58) I don't know that it was one event that triggered my curiosity. (9:02) It was, I have memories of trying to assemble furniture. (9:08) Interesting.
(9:08) Right, when we would get like a new shelf or something, trying to assemble it without the instructions. (9:14) And usually it worked out, but sometimes it didn't. (9:17) But that kind of engineering hands-on activity was really, really gratifying to me.
(9:25) My father worked in polymer research, and so I was also, kind of had that exposure as well to that side of science and engineering. (9:36) So that, I think, certainly helped. (9:38) But there was one teacher in eighth grade who had a huge impact on me.
(9:44) And it wasn't necessarily in the curiosity side of things, but it was more on how I behaved in group settings. (9:50) And she held a parent-teacher conference with my parents, which sounded like it might be bad news, right, because it was kind of off-cycle. (9:59) And so we went in and we talked, and she said, Rita's doing fine, there's no issue there, but she's really quiet.
(10:04) And I was shy and quiet, and the teacher said, she needs to participate more and contribute to the conversation more. (10:12) And so that was really a turning point for me, wherein I would start raising my hand more, making my opinions known a bit more. (10:19) Not overly so, but just knowing that it was kind of a gap.
(10:23) And I think that teacher really put me on a different course than I might have been on originally, and so I do credit her quite a bit. (10:32) Way to go, teacher. You got her to move into a different area.
(10:36) Well, you know, communication and participating is critical in the field of innovation, so. (10:42) Absolutely. (10:43) I don't know what we, I don't think we as innovators here could operate without it, so.
(10:48) Right, right. (10:49) Well done. (10:51) So did you have, it sounds like your dad was somewhat instrumental in getting you into science, (10:59) because that's his field, where he kind of came from, but were there any other mentors that you bumped into along the way, (11:05) other than the teacher and your father? (11:08) There were some.
There were some that actually articulated something negative to me. (11:16) Yes. (11:17) And I took the position of, well, I'm going to prove you wrong.
(11:20) Yes. (11:21) Right, like, oh, well, you're a female, and I'm surprised you're doing this well in algebra kind of thing. (11:27) Right, right.
(11:27) And so I remember I went back and visited a high school teacher, and I went to MIT, and I had an MIT crew shirt on. (11:36) I rode for MIT. (11:38) Yes.
(11:38) And he said, oh, is that your boyfriend's shirt? (11:40) And I said, no, it's mine. (11:43) And so it was that kind of, you know, even my teachers had this mentality of, well, you should pursue this, (11:51) and others should pursue this other route. (11:53) And so it was more of a feisty kind of defiance, perhaps.
(11:58) But it worked. (11:59) Right. (11:59) Nonetheless, it worked for me.
(12:01) It got you fired up. (12:03) Right. (12:03) And you went to go chase it, and no one was going to stop you.
(12:06) Well done. (12:07) We love that kind of determination. (12:09) And I think that there's a lot to be said about that.
(12:12) It's the failure, you know, having a failing at something, it's a great motivator, right? (12:19) It's like, I want to do that again. (12:21) I know I can figure out a way. (12:23) Or I'm not supposed to be able to do this.
(12:26) I'm, quote, a woman, right? (12:28) And I'll tell you what, if I was a girl and somebody said, I would just, I'd want to go run right through that wall, right? (12:34) So I'm glad you did. (12:36) Thank you for your contribution. (12:39) So let's continue.
(12:41) Let's see here. (12:42) We're going to talk a little bit about advice and a role toward the future. (12:46) If you could do any one thing over in high school that really just didn't work for you, other than one item we talked about before.
(12:56) What I'm going to try to relay here is, when we're in high school, we don't always do the best things. (13:01) We're in high school. (13:03) We're growing.
(13:04) We're making all sorts of decisions. (13:05) Our minds are forming. (13:07) Were there any, did you have any trip-ups along the way? (13:10) Or was it pretty, you know, kind of a straight course to MIT? (13:13) Oh, I'm sure there were trip-ups.
(13:15) Yeah, yeah. (13:16) I was far from perfect. (13:19) It was high school.
(13:22) It was difficult. (13:23) Yes. (13:24) And I certainly was, I would, well, you know how they have those superlatives, best smile, nicest hair, all of that? (13:33) I was, of course, given my drive, was at the point of driving for or pushing for most likely to be successful or most likely to whatever that superlative is.
(13:45) And I got voted most individualistic. (13:49) So, which was, in hindsight, I'm proud of that. (13:53) But at the time, I thought, well, wow, everyone thinks I'm a loner.
(13:57) Yeah, right, right. (13:57) I would do if I were you. (13:58) Right? (14:00) So, it was, you know, I had not hung out with the popular kids or, you know, I certainly wouldn't consider myself a jock.
(14:09) But I did my own thing and felt at the time that it wasn't the right thing. (14:16) So, my advice, my thought to folks who are kind of in that situation is it all works out. (14:22) It all works out.
(14:24) And one of the highlights of my career is that I was nominated by the President of the United States to be the Assistant Secretary for Nuclear Energy in the U.S. Department of Energy. (14:34) And when that happened, the first thought that came to my mind is if my high school self could see me now. (14:40) Wow, that's insightful.
(14:42) That really is. (14:43) Thank you. (14:44) Because that is so powerful to think back and look back like that.
(14:49) Because as a young person, we don't do that, do we? (14:51) Well, you don't have that much to look back towards, right? (14:55) It's scary to like look forward and look into the future and say, how do I dress? (15:00) How do I look? (15:00) What did I accomplish? (15:02) What am I doing? (15:02) Am I married? (15:03) Do I have kids? (15:04) I mean, there's a million other things that are scaring us about that future. (15:07) And really, it shouldn't be scary. (15:09) No.
(15:10) You're going to navigate, right? (15:12) It sounds like you've navigated very well. (15:14) Congratulations on that, by the way. (15:15) Well, thank you.
(15:16) But the course was not prepaved, I'll say that. (15:20) So there you go. (15:21) It's not prepaved, everybody.
(15:23) You're going to have to figure it out. (15:24) And sometimes it's a rocky road. (15:27) Well said.
(15:29) All right. (15:29) So let's chat a little, if we could, about did you have exposure to other fields other than the one that nuclear? (15:36) I had, I would say, exposure to engineering as a whole. (15:41) Yes.
(15:42) And a lot of different science kinds of things. (15:47) Scientific activities, I would say. (15:49) I had internships at aerospace companies, at NASA.
(15:57) And, I mean, also through graduate school, tried a few different things as well. (16:03) You asked about regrets. (16:05) The one regret that I do have was in college.
(16:09) And MIT had this glass-blowing facility in the basement. (16:13) And to this day, I regret not taking part in that activity because now I've tried glass-blowing and I loved it. (16:22) And I thought, I had that at my disposal for three years and I didn't take advantage of it.
(16:28) Isn't it a release? (16:29) You can go in and work and work and work and then go do a creative activity. (16:34) Some people bake. (16:35) Some people blow glass.
(16:37) But the creative arts are such a great way to just release. (16:41) And then you get back to that other grinding work that you enjoy that challenges your brain, right? (16:48) I'm glad you found that. (16:50) Because I enjoy doing creative arts myself.
(16:53) And that's at least what I've, we actually refer to that around here. (16:56) We manage it. (16:58) We manage the process of creativity.
(17:02) And sometimes the mind is open, which we emulate with the open hand. (17:07) And we work on the problems and we try to grind through solutions. (17:10) And as we're doing this, the mind gets tighter and tighter and tighter.
(17:13) We can't get any more ideas. (17:15) So what do we do? (17:16) We break. (17:17) We go blow glass.
(17:18) We go do cooking. (17:20) We go do something else until our mind relaxes. (17:23) And then when we get back together, we can solve those hard problems again.
(17:26) And that's really important. (17:28) It is. (17:29) So managing the process.
(17:31) Okay. (17:32) Well, knowing what you know, do you believe that at this day and age, anybody could be successful? (17:38) I do. (17:40) I do.
(17:41) I think the few things that I would encourage folks to listen to is there's going to be other folks in your life that will see something in you that you may not see in yourself. (17:54) You might get that tap on the shoulder or that phone call or that today text saying, hey, I think you should try this. (18:02) Or I think you should apply for this job.
(18:04) Or this internship might be good for you. (18:05) And you yourself might think I'm not qualified or I don't think I want to try that. (18:12) I would say try it because that individual sees something in you that you may not see in yourself.
(18:19) And those opportunities don't come that frequently. (18:22) I've had two such opportunities and they've both really worked out for me. (18:26) I doubted myself.
(18:27) I doubted my abilities. (18:29) But trusted that those individuals who said you need to apply for this job or you need to try being a manager. (18:37) Yes.
(18:37) Well, you know, Rita, it sounds you've been very successful in your career. (18:42) And I'm curious, you know, why did you decide to be studious? (18:51) Why did it become important? (18:53) Was it something because your parents said you had to do it? (18:57) Or did you find that you solved a problem and then you said, I want to do more of that? (19:02) Can you locate that space in your mind as to how that worked? (19:07) Some of it was certainly my parents saying, you know, this is important. (19:11) Yes.
(19:12) But also the satisfaction that came with figuring out, you know, (19:18) a complex math problem or understanding chemical equations and how they worked or physics, for that matter. (19:27) It was it like sparked something in me where, oh, I get it. (19:31) I get it.
And let me try this other one. (19:33) Or if I don't get it and I'm failing, let me let me figure it out. (19:37) Let me figure it out and see how to get the right answer.
(19:41) Or maybe there's not a right answer. (19:43) And you go forth and you provide your thought or your solution. (19:49) And the teacher or the professor thinks, oh, that's that's interesting.
(19:53) A little bit of positive feedback, I guess, can go a long way as well. (19:58) It sure can. Oh, my goodness.
(20:01) I'd say that my teachers as well. (20:03) The ones that inspired me the most were the they were engaging. (20:07) And I love my chemistry teacher and a few others that positively encouraged me to do certain things.
(20:14) And it made big impacts. (20:17) And maybe that's another way of looking at it, too, is when others believe in you. (20:21) You know, they you don't I didn't want to let them down.
(20:24) And I don't want to let myself down. (20:25) But I don't know. I just fell in love with chemistry after that moment.
(20:29) So what do you think the next big innovation is going to be in nuclear? (20:34) Can you share any of those thoughts with us? (20:37) I think using advanced manufacturing techniques. (20:42) So let's within that umbrella is additive manufacturing or 3D printing. (20:49) To develop new components and perhaps new fuel for the nuclear industry will be revolutionary.
(20:57) You can design a component to fit whatever shape you need and perform whatever function you need versus being at the moment confined by what's called subtractive manufacturing. (21:11) Yes. And confined to specific materials and specific pieces of equipment.
(21:17) So I think really leveraging advanced manufacturing techniques is going to be the next big thing. (21:24) And what we need in our industry to overcome is this mentality of not invented here. (21:31) Right.
Well, we didn't invent it, so we aren't going to be using it. (21:34) Now, let's let's bring in the other brainiacs and let's use what they've already invented. (21:39) Yes.
All right. So. All right.
(21:42) So let's let's go one step in a totally different direction. (21:47) And we're going to imagine that we have some education leaders, let's say, (21:52) based on your background and history, if we could talk to those people, (21:58) what kind of recommendations would you would you make to them that might be beneficial? (22:04) I would say to that to that community, make sure that you leverage all of the resources that are out there. (22:11) There's so much online content now, even specific to nuclear energy.
(22:17) The content is out there. It's a matter of. (22:19) Yes, you have to even educators have to do the homework and find what's appropriate to fit into their lesson plans.
(22:27) But to look for new information, new content for those that might be in the in the post, (22:34) I would say post-secondary aspect of things, online courses as well, (22:40) that that students can be encouraged to take that may not be at their university or even, (22:45) you know, the Associates Community College or associate's degree kind of programs. (22:49) To me, just absolutely remarkable how much information is out there that we can all, (22:57) even me and you participate in and learn new things about. (23:02) Well, hopefully they're listening and read it.
(23:06) Thank you so much for your time today and helping our audience to see a little into your world. (23:11) And so thank you for coming. Thanks for having me.
(23:16) Thank you for listening to this episode of Tomorrow's World Today podcast. (23:20) Join us next time as we continue to explore the worlds of inspiration, creation, innovation and production. (23:27) Discover more at Tomorrow's World Today dot com.
(23:29) Connect with us on social media at TWT Explore and find us wherever podcasts are available.

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