Atomic Horizons: Idaho National Lab’s Role in Space Power

Powering space exploration with nuclear energy? 🚀 Stephen Johnson, Director of the Space Nuclear Power and Isotope Technologies Division at Idaho National Lab, shares how the company's groundbreaking tech is lighting up the cosmos.

Featured on: 

• S4E08 – The Clean Factor
• S4E09 – The Past, Present, and Future of Nuclear Energy
• S4E10 – Big Power in Small Packages
• S4E11 – Nuclear Does What, Now?
• Reimagining Reactors: How Research Powers Nuclear Energy

Learn more about this topic: 

• Advanced Nuclear Reactors: A Conversation With TerraPower’s Chris Levesque 
• 5 Myths (and facts) About Nuclear Energy
• Nuclear is the Best Bet For Getting Humans To Mars
• Preliminary Design of TRISO-X Fuel Plant Completed
• 6 Advantages of Small Modular Reactors
• First Nuclear Microreactor Confirmed for the US Air Force
• History and Future of Nuclear Energy

Transcript

(0:00) Welcome to the Tomorrow's World Today podcast. (0:04) We sit down with experts, world-changing innovators, (0:07) creators, and makers to explore how they're taking action (0:10) to make tomorrow's world a better place for technology, (0:14) science, innovation, sustainability, the arts, and more. (0:18) On this episode, host George Davison, (0:20) who is also the host of Tomorrow's World Today on the Science Channel, (0:24) sits down with Stephen Johnson.
(0:25) Dr. Johnson is the director of the Space Nuclear Power and Isotope Technologies Division (0:31) at the Materials and Fuels Complex at the Idaho National Laboratory. (0:36) He discusses NASA's nuclear power systems, (0:39) which support space missions in remote and hostile environments, (0:42) such as the Moon and Mars. (0:44) Dr. Johnson's work includes creating long-lasting, (0:47) compact, and reliable power solutions for spacecraft, (0:51) with a strong emphasis on innovation, collaboration, (0:54) and quality to ensure success in harsh space conditions.
(0:59) Well, welcome to our show. (1:02) Happy to be here. (1:03) All right, well, I have some questions for you today, (1:06) and I hope you'll just, you know, share everything you can with our audience.
(1:11) And maybe we should start with, you know, (1:14) can you talk a little bit about what does Idaho National Lab's Space Division do? (1:19) We do power systems for NASA in remote and hostile environments. (1:27) So a remote, hostile environment would be, could you describe what that is? (1:33) Let's say on the Moon, on Mars, cruising by Pluto, cruising by Saturn, (1:38) those sort of environments. (1:40) Yes, now those are pretty harsh environments.
(1:42) Yes. (1:43) So in your division, what does the future look like? (1:47) The future looks like lots of different applications of nuclear power equipment (1:54) to help empower different space missions, (1:59) whether it's going to Mars for a sample recovery mission, (2:03) another launch out of the solar system, like a lot of people see the Voyager probes. (2:08) Those are out of our solar system.
(2:10) There's a mission out there called Interstellar Probe, (2:12) which is a mission that it's going to take them 50 years to get out there, (2:16) and they need a power system that's going to work that long. (2:18) That's the future. (2:20) Wow.
(2:21) So imagine these power systems that you're talking about. (2:25) These aren't big vehicles, are they? (2:28) No. (2:29) Everything with NASA is very much about how small can you make it (2:32) and how little can you make it weigh.
(2:35) That makes sense, because it's very expensive to shoot things up into space. (2:40) Very expensive, and it's all about mass and volume. (2:45) So then can you talk about what your position is responsible for? (2:52) Yes.
(2:53) When NASA needs a power system to help enable a mission, (2:57) and they've determined that a nuclear-powered power system is the best way to go, (3:03) they contact the Department of Energy, (3:05) and the Department of Energy turns to the Idaho National Laboratory (3:08) and its other partner national labs to provide that power system. (3:12) Typically, we get that sort of call about five to six years prior to launch date, as they say. (3:18) We work very hard to make certain we get the right power system to the NASA customer in time (3:24) and that it's going to do what they want it to do.
(3:28) All right. (3:28) So let's walk this back a little bit, Steve. (3:31) How did you get started on a course in your life going into this kind of work? (3:38) Okay.
(3:38) For me, it started very, very early. (3:40) I'm in my late 50s. (3:42) So I grew up in the Apollo era.
(3:44) I was that kid that built that two-foot-tall Saturn V rocket. (3:48) Yes. (3:48) That got an encyclopedia set called Above and Beyond (3:52) that had all that neat NASA stuff and aeronautical stuff in it.
(3:57) And I tended to focus on nerdy stuff, science and mathematics, when I went through school. (4:02) And that was my start back in the late 60s, early 70s. (4:07) Graduated in 1980, went into chemistry and mathematics (4:14) and later laser beams for doing analysis.
(4:18) But that was my start. (4:19) That's very interesting. (4:21) But just so, the rocket world, when I was in high school, I started a club there, (4:28) and it was the Rocket Club, and it was so exciting.
(4:32) We would all build our rockets, and then on the weekend, we'd go out and shoot them off. (4:37) And our imaginations would just soar. (4:40) So, yeah, that's interesting, having things to think about (4:45) or to give you inspiration when you're younger to shoot for, right? (4:49) Absolutely.
(4:50) And I'm a firm believer in you can never tell how things are going to finally come together later. (4:58) The things that you do earlier in life that you think, well, this is okay for a little while. (5:03) But if you retain that knowledge, when you come to what you really want to do, (5:07) it all kind of blends together.
(5:09) And you never know what's going to be at the end of the pathway. (5:14) You always need to remain engaged and learn what you can wherever you're at. (5:20) Well said.
(5:21) So, how important would you say innovation is at the Idaho National Labs Space Division? (5:29) It's very important. (5:31) When I look at the, let's see, you look at the Mars missions from 2002, Spirit and Opportunity. (5:43) And when I first looked at the films, the films from the, at that time, the Jet Propulsion Lab, (5:49) I'm like, okay, how are you going to get this down? (5:51) I looked at this three-dimensional triangle thing that was going to go down through the atmosphere, (5:56) bounce around a whole lot and pop open.
(5:58) There was a rover. (5:58) I was like, there's no way that's going to work. (6:02) And we made, we delivered the heat sources that are on Spirit and Opportunity that worked for many years.
(6:09) And we later followed up with power systems for the Curiosity rover and the Perseverance rover. (6:15) And again, I looked at that and I'm like, okay, you're coming down and you're slowing down from 24,000 miles an hour (6:20) down to like 10 feet a second. (6:23) I was like, you're kidding.
(6:24) That's not going to work. (6:25) And you watch the films and then you watch the actual landing. (6:28) I thought, wow, what a neat thing to be part of.
(6:32) Very much so. (6:34) So, figuring out how to make things like that happen is, there's a lot of innovation in trying to think differently, (6:42) think outside the box. (6:44) Absolutely.
(6:45) You can't apply exactly the only things that you know that work on Earth to something that's going to be on another planet (6:53) or orbiting another planet. (6:55) You've got to think outside the box and you've got to check it out. (6:59) Isn't that interesting? (7:00) I never really thought of it that way.
(7:02) Because everything you have to think about out in space has to be in like space world, right? (7:08) There's no gravity. (7:09) There's so many unique things out there. (7:13) We don't even understand yet.
(7:15) And you have to try to envision that world and come up with products or solutions that let you kind of navigate it. (7:24) Absolutely the case. (7:25) And specifically for what we do in Idaho, our power systems, one, there's not a backup on board.
(7:32) Two, once they're on the spacecraft and launched, there's no repairs or anything. (7:36) Secondly, we basically certify them to work for 17 years. (7:41) They take seven, eight, nine months to get to Mars and then they have to work for years and years after that.
(7:48) You think about that and there's some things that we do that are very quality driven, little things, (7:55) certify torque wrenches and all these things. (7:57) People are like, why are you doing it so rigorously? (7:59) It's like it's going to work for 17 years. (8:02) And you've got a $2.5 billion space mission that if your part doesn't work right, it doesn't work at all.
(8:08) It's a lot of responsibility. (8:09) It is, but it's also pretty damn cool when you get right down to it. (8:13) It sure is.
(8:15) That is exciting. (8:16) All right, well, let's keep moving along here. (8:19) So in your specific position, what would you say you're responsible for directly? (8:27) Okay, when the use of nuclear power is first thought about, they're interested in what can it do, what can't it do, (8:37) when can you provide it, how much is it going to cost, those sort of basic questions.
(8:43) And in my position, I'm that first contact with the Idaho National Lab. (8:48) I'm there to say what we can do, what we can promise, when it can be there, (8:53) and what kind of interaction we can have with NASA along the way. (8:56) That's my job, which is to lay out the playing field, make certain we get the deliverables up front, (9:02) the schedule, the cost profiles, get all the coordination done within the Department of Energy that I can do in my position.
(9:11) And that's why I'm there typically every spring when NASA does its budget planning, which goes out for us seven years. (9:20) I'm there to provide those estimates so that people can know what's available (9:25) when they put out an announcement of opportunity, an AO for a mission. (9:30) I'll be that last point of contact, say, yes, we can provide this, and we will be there.
(9:35) You don't have to worry about us. (9:37) We are going to be a good partner. (9:40) All right, so in order to do that job, it sounds like you need quite a few different skill sets in order to be able to make a recommendation of that type, right, (9:48) that you can achieve this kind of an outcome, and you do understand what the cost and all the parameters are going to be.
(9:58) So is it you? (9:59) Do you work with a team? (10:01) How does that function? (10:04) Okay, as far as providing the product, I work with other people at Oak Ridge National Lab and Los Alamos National Lab (10:10) to make certain we have all the pieces and parts, as it were, along with our commercial partner for the power system. (10:17) So we make certain we've got all the pieces and the parts, that our production schedule will support that. (10:23) So that's a coordination job.
(10:25) I'm also national technical director for space nuclear power for the Department of Energy. (10:30) So that is something that I know the right people to call to get the right information. (10:34) So that's an important part.
(10:36) As far as the costing, I've done the costing for over the last decade. (10:41) That's a coordination thing as well, as well as making certain you know all the right people to call (10:47) and all the right partner organizations. (10:49) There's lots of little pieces and parts, and we've done this for four space missions now.
(10:56) It's knowledge of who the players are, what they can provide, the costs, factoring in if you need additional margin, (11:04) and knowing who to contact on a county space center for the other pieces and parts that fit in later on. (11:10) I've done that a few times now, and so that's what I do. (11:14) Sounds like a pretty big team and group of people you're pulling together.
(11:18) The magic part is when you're in that last four months, and you're down at county space center, (11:23) and you're down there with 100 people from the Jet Propulsion Lab or Applied Physics Lab (11:28) who's ever managing the mission, and you've got a couple, three dozen of your people (11:32) developing a power system, and you're fitting in with all the subcontractors down there at county. (11:37) That is the greatest group dynamic exercise I've ever seen. (11:41) It all culminates with watching a rocket go off.
(11:44) I mean, that's pretty way cool. (11:46) It is really cool. (11:47) I mean, big inspiration, and to be a part of it, you must be very proud of yourself.
(11:54) It's very satisfying because you're usually at the end of a five- to six-year spin-up on it, (12:01) and when you get to that point, it was a little bit more interesting. (12:06) This last launch, the July 2020, Mars 2020 Perseverance rover, we were all down there and everything. (12:13) Of course, Cocoa Beach was deserted.
(12:17) It was during the pandemic. (12:19) We were down there April to July, and there was nobody down there if you weren't involved with the mission, (12:24) not out and about. (12:26) Well, thank you for your contribution to making all this happen.
(12:31) And I'm sure somewhere along the way there were others that contributed to you. (12:35) Did you have any mentors when you were, let's say, in high school or younger (12:38) or even college that helped to start you on a course? (12:44) Several along the way. (12:46) I'll focus maybe on some in the – let's see.
(12:50) I had a chemistry teacher in high school. (12:53) I had a couple of years of chemistry through him, and he was always somebody that was very inspirational, (12:58) hard work, and taught me all the stuff that he could, and that was a nice launching board for college. (13:04) And other people along the way, just, you know, work hard, learn what you learn, (13:13) and, you know, don't worry about looking too far down the track.
(13:17) Just you've got a job. (13:19) Do your job well, and good things will happen. (13:22) That was something when I went to the National Lab System.
(13:25) I had several good mentors. (13:27) They all did it a little bit differently, but they were very inspirational, and it's fantastic now. (13:34) If I can grab somebody who needs some mentoring now or needs some comments, (13:39) I've had people come in, and they're like, oh, okay, I don't know about this or this, (13:42) and I'm like, hey, this is where you're at.
(13:45) Where do you want to go? (13:46) Well, I'm not certain. (13:46) I said, well, you're at a pretty good spot. (13:49) Work hard, do well, and keep your eyes open.
(13:52) If there's something out there that I can help you with as far as a direction, a recommendation, (13:57) I'm here to help you out, trying to give back a little bit. (14:00) Yes. (14:01) It sounds like you really like what you're doing.
(14:03) So was it just a stroke of luck that you happened to find that, or, you know, how did that happen for you? (14:14) For me, kind of the magic moment was 2002. (14:17) I was managing an electron microscopy lab, had a small group of people, (14:22) and we were doing good work and working hard, and finally DOE came in. (14:26) They said, hey, you know, we've got this stuff in Ohio that due to the fallout from 9-11, we need to move somewhere else.
(14:35) And the lab looked around, and they said, hey, you know, you do something with plutonium-230. (14:40) I'm like, yeah, I'm a Ph.D. chemist. (14:42) I manage a lab.
(14:43) We analyze samples with it. (14:44) They said, oh, you're it. (14:46) And so we were given three weeks to put together a $15 million proposal on how to move a medium-sized project (14:55) that needed a new building and all this stuff.
(14:57) And I kind of walked away from that. (14:59) I said, can I go to Ohio and look at this? (15:00) They said, no, no, you can't do that. (15:02) And so I called together a big meeting on Monday, and this is Friday.
(15:06) I'm sitting there going like, wow, what am I going to tell people? (15:09) So I spent the weekend with butcher-block white paper sheets, you know, three foot tall, sketching out stuff. (15:15) And that was what I conducted the meeting with on Monday. (15:18) And people were looking at me.
(15:19) I said, hey, we need this put together, buffed up, shined in three weeks. (15:25) It ended up being a $15 million proposal that we sent out. (15:28) And I knew all the right people to call, but, you know, some people were like, you know, you've never handled something this big.
(15:34) You know why? (15:35) There was a lot of just suspicion that it was just an exercise. (15:42) And we pushed it through. (15:44) And within three months, we had the project coming our way.
(15:47) And then I got a whole bunch of learning experiences over several years. (15:53) I'll tell you, I can tell your experience because you said butcher-block paper. (16:00) And, you know, that's such a valuable asset, right? (16:04) I mean, for all of you out there who don't know what that is, when you go into the butcher shop, you know, (16:10) where you get your meats and the grocery, there's a very big spool of white paper there.
(16:15) And it's like the greatest paper to draw out all your ideas. (16:19) And it just goes on and on and on and on. (16:22) So you can really get inspired and just keep going.
(16:26) And we've used plenty of butcher paper over the years around here. (16:30) It was just funny to hear you bring it up. (16:33) So let's chat a little bit about people in general.
(16:37) Do you believe anybody can be successful? (16:41) Yes, I do. (16:43) You need to take a, you know, if you're just sitting there and you don't know where you're going, (16:47) think about what you enjoy doing. (16:50) Don't be concerned about how much money you can make doing it.
(16:53) Think about something you truly enjoy doing just for doing it. (16:58) And once you've picked those one or two or three, four things, maybe it's just one or two, (17:04) take a look at it and talk to people in that field. (17:07) See what you can do that maybe you can make money doing it.
(17:12) Okay, again, trying to enhance my small talk capabilities on an airplane, (17:17) I sat next to this guy, and he was there with, I don't know, ripped out jeans and everything. (17:21) And I was flying from Salt Lake City to Glenn Research Center in Cleveland, (17:26) and he was going to Cleveland, and he was probably about 30 years old. (17:31) And I said, so what do you do? (17:32) He said, yeah, he said, I do pyrotechnics.
(17:35) I'm like, really? (17:37) I said, is that good to you? (17:40) He said, well, he said, I'm going into Cleveland. (17:42) And he said, I'm doing this. (17:44) And I just stared at him, and he said, yeah, a lot of the young guys, they go to school, (17:48) they get all these degrees, they learn about chemicals.
(17:51) He said, but if they come and they intern with me, he said, within about one year, (17:55) I can get them to a skill level where they're making six figures. (17:59) And now this is the lead pyrotechnic guy for Beyonce and Jay-Z. (18:03) And he was flying in for them to do their big shows in Cleveland a few years back.
(18:08) And I thought, okay, this guy, he's got it going on. (18:11) He had just come back from L.A. visiting his family, his wife, (18:15) and he looked like somebody that was itinerant, whatever. (18:19) But no, he's like, no.
(18:21) He said, I can show you how to do the big pyrotechnics. (18:24) I can do this. (18:24) And I'm like, hey, you're working for Beyonce and Jay-Z.
(18:27) I'm like, yeah, you're probably doing pretty okay. (18:31) But that was somebody who figured out what they wanted to do. (18:34) He didn't have a college degree in anything.
(18:36) He just picked it up by having somebody teach him something and kept working on it. (18:42) And he was at the top of his game. (18:43) I thought that was pretty neat.
(18:45) So, again, pick something that you like to do. (18:48) Focus on it. (18:49) Talk to people in the field.
(18:50) You can probably figure out a way to make a living doing it. (18:53) Maybe better than make a living. (18:55) Steve, that's great advice.
(18:57) If you're lucky enough to find what you like, it's not work, is it? (19:02) It's intriguing and you want to go do it. (19:04) You want to jump out of bed in the morning and go get started with what you're doing. (19:09) I think some of the challenge is finding what you like.
(19:13) Absolutely. (19:14) But I've had other people along the way, other mentors tell me, they said, yeah. (19:19) They said, okay, yeah, you've got degrees in this.
(19:21) Figure out what you like to do. (19:22) Because they said at some point you may have that tough stretch where you're not making a lot of money, whatever else. (19:29) And he said, if you're doing what you like to do, he said, you'll get through those tough stretches.
(19:34) But if you're doing something that you were only doing because you could make a lot of money at one point in time, (19:38) and all of a sudden that's dried up or changed, then you don't have a whole lot to keep you going during the day. (19:47) Yes, well said. (19:49) All right, so let's shift back for a minute.
(19:51) We're going to go back to the nuclear energy, the nuclear area for a minute. (19:56) What do you think the next big innovation will be in the nuclear industry? (20:04) Okay, so from my background, we also do developmental work in the application of nuclear reactors for space. (20:10) If we ever want to get men to Mars and get them back again, we're going to need propulsion systems that are nuclear-based to get there.
(20:19) And that work has been ongoing for several years, but still is in its infancy. (20:27) That's a neat field to work on. (20:29) Or if we want to get men to have a colony on the moon, they're going to need power.
(20:33) Solar won't do it. (20:35) Half the time you're at the moon, you're in the dark 14 days at a time. (20:41) So having a nuclear power plant on the moon would be truly neat.
(20:46) Those are things that are out there. (20:48) They're under development. (20:50) They're 10, 15 years off.
(20:52) Plenty of opportunity for somebody to jump in there and make a mark and learn something pretty neat and really contribute to that. (21:01) So that's, I think, is a hot area. (21:04) There are several areas where NASA is currently spending millions, tens of millions of dollars per year.
(21:10) And NASA spends it within NASA, within universities, within private companies. (21:17) Lots of different venues that you can contribute to that. (21:20) That's what I think is an important avenue going forward for nuclear power.
(21:25) Nuclear power on the moon, that sounds so exciting. (21:29) I mean, one of the questions that came up recently, things probably nobody ever thinks about, (21:35) okay, if you're going to have a manned colony on Mars, what's it going to be constructed of? (21:39) Okay, so people are trying to get samples back from Mars because if you're going to go to Mars, (21:48) I don't think we're going to be hauling bags of here-in-Portland cement up there and a whole bunch of water. (21:54) So they're trying to take a look at the regolith, the soil of Mars, and figure out what's it made of (21:59) and what can we add to it to essentially make Martian concrete.
(22:05) And although people may go, okay, so what have you got on Mars? (22:11) You've got the regolith. Well, what's the other part? (22:13) So they're using different forms of urine to try to be that liquid that they need to make concrete (22:21) so they can actually build things on Mars because, again, mass is everything, (22:27) and you're not going to be hauling steel girders up there or slabs of preformed concrete. (22:31) You need a way of making a permanent structure once you're there.
(22:36) And water is very heavy, so we don't want to have to blast that up into space. (22:40) So urine makes sense. (22:42) Yeah, so those are different aspects.
(22:46) There's lots of different aspects. (22:48) If you're focusing on biology, they're looking at the different things that have lived on Mars in the past. (22:56) So you don't have to be a rocket scientist to be involved with space stuff, (23:01) just kind of a take-home message there.
(23:03) There's lots of different angles. (23:05) If you can think of a more efficient way of splitting, say, frozen water you may find on the moon or Mars (23:12) to get oxygen and hydrogen, that's a fuel. (23:15) That's another different angle.
(23:17) Lots of different angles that you can apply up to something that NASA is going to do on Mars or on the moon. (23:25) Steve, I can't thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today. (23:29) Thank you for coming out.
(23:31) Thank you for having me. (23:33) Thank you for listening to this episode of Tomorrow's World Today podcast. (23:37) Join us next time as we continue to explore the worlds of inspiration, creation, innovation, and production.
(23:44) Discover more at tomorrowsworldtoday.com, connect with us on social media at TWTExplore, (23:49) and find us wherever podcasts are available.