Up in the Air: General Atomics on Autonomous Ascent

David Alexander, President at General Atomics, navigates through the latest strides in fusing AI with unmanned systems. Learn more about how the company is steering the next phase of aerial surveillance and combat technology.

Featured on Tomorrow's World Today:
Season 8 Episode 5

Learn more about this topic here: 

• How Unmanned Aircraft is Controlled From an Office or in the Field
• Meet the Fleet of Unmanned Aircraft Shaping Military Operations

Transcript

(0:00) Welcome to the Tomorrow's World Today podcast. (0:04) We sit down with experts, world-changing innovators, creators, and makers to explore how they're (0:11) taking action to make tomorrow's world a better place for technology, science, innovation, (0:18) sustainability, the arts, and more. (0:22) In this episode, George Davison, host of Tomorrow's World Today on the Science Channel, sits down (0:27) with Dave Alexander.
(0:27) Dave Alexander, the president of General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, an energy and (0:31) defense corporation that designs and manufactures unmanned aerial vehicles and radar systems (0:36) for the U.S. military, as well as commercial applications worldwide. (0:39) They explore the foresight of its founders, the company's legacy in drone technology, (0:43) and how innovation continues to drive their contributions to national defense and global (0:48) surveillance. (0:49) Now, here's George Davison.
(0:50) Welcome to the show. (0:51) Thank you, Jordan. (0:52) Thanks for having me.
(0:53) You bet. (0:53) So, you know, it would probably help our audience to know a little bit about what your company (0:58) does in general. (1:00) Could you give us a general feeling for what you do? (1:03) Well, General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, by its name, is really, it's focused on unmanned (1:08) systems to provide surveillance combined with super long endurance.
(1:12) And so that was kind of our hallmark that really got us going in the beginning days. (1:17) Our, we're privately held by the Blue family, and Neil Blue and his brother had this idea (1:23) way back, you know, at the advent of GPS and long endurance, you know, cheaper platforms (1:30) that could go out there and persist and provide surveillance over long periods of time as (1:35) a very effective way for the military to have eyes on what's going on and make, you know, (1:41) good decisions based on that. (1:43) So we're talking drones and, you know, the field of drones, that's a promising and upcoming (1:50) area of our economy.
(1:53) Is that fair to say? (1:54) I think it's fair to say around the world right now that there are, populations aren't (2:00) what they used to be in Gorling. (2:02) Getting trained pilots is not as easy as it used to be. (2:07) And so I really, you'll see a lot of national defense strategies around different nations (2:12) around the world really embracing unmanned because it's their future.
(2:17) They see a dwindling population in some areas, and it's how you multiply, it's a force multiplier (2:22) to go unmanned. (2:23) That's wonderful. (2:24) And your position there is, what do you do as president? (2:28) Well, that's a good question, I think.
(2:30) I light fires, I put them out, I take the trash out when needed, you know, but I have (2:36) to, you know, you do what's needed. (2:39) I started out 29 years ago when the company was really small as an engineer, you know, (2:44) my trade, I'm an engineer by trade. (2:47) I've been doing aerospace engineering unmanned my whole career, unmanned for 45 years now.
(2:53) And 29 years ago, I started with General Atomics, and, you know, I headed up design for many, (2:59) many years. (3:00) And then I made president about nine years ago, and now they let me do engineering things (3:06) every now and then. (3:07) I see.
(3:07) Yeah. (3:08) Well, that sounds like it's kind of logical, right? (3:10) I mean, you're having an engineering background, dedicating all those years in there, you (3:15) put enough years in, you have enough knowledge to start running things. (3:19) Yep.
(3:19) Yeah. (3:20) And no, it's a rewarding, rewarding business to be in, because there's a bigger purpose (3:26) to what you're doing when you're, you know, linked up with saving lives on the battlefield, (3:30) you're linked up with saving lives and civilian applications. (3:34) And so, you know, getting up in the morning has a different purpose in life.
(3:38) And so it not only is it fun as an engineer to design aircraft and sensors and radars, (3:44) but it's also has a purpose to it. (3:47) That's great. (3:47) Yeah.
(3:47) Anytime you can chase a noble cause in life, it really isn't work anymore, is it? (3:52) That's right. (3:52) Yeah. (3:53) It gets those feet out of bed in the morning.
(3:55) You mentioned a little bit of the history, but there are two brothers that started this (4:00) business, correct? (4:01) Correct. (4:01) So can you give us a quick summary on like, where did the idea for the business come from (4:08) back in those days? (4:09) And when was that? (4:10) When was the company started? (4:12) Well, the company started early nineties and it was, again, the vision of Neil Blue and (4:18) his brother, Lyndon Blue, and they're both aviation enthusiasts. (4:22) They're both, they both pilots and they really saw the vision of the future in many ways.
(4:28) The unmanned persistent ISR surveillance platform was really their vision. (4:36) I think when you combine that with the first advanced concept technology demonstration (4:41) program that we had with the joint services, that's where Predator finally took hold. (4:48) And how it took hold was over their horizon control through satellite combined with real-time (4:56) actionable strike combined together.
(4:59) So you had a platform that could fly for a day and watch and keep an eye on the soldiers (5:04) on the ground and when needed, take action and it went big from there, went big. (5:10) This is a sizable company now. (5:11) So from the nineties till now, how many employees do you have? (5:15) Like 9,500 employees.
(5:17) 9,500. (5:18) And we're operating 78 locations around the world currently, and we've flown over eight (5:24) and a half million flight hours, and every year we fly another 500,000 flight hours. (5:29) So yeah, it's a busy company.
(5:31) That's a lot of locations, a lot of employees. (5:35) What kind of customers? (5:36) Is the government mostly your customer base? (5:39) Yeah, almost 100%. (5:41) I mean, there's some civil applications and border protection and things like that.
(5:47) There's some areas where a manned aircraft can't get because of the endurance and things (5:52) like railway inspection and oil derricks that are out in the ocean, far out. (6:00) And this has an application in the civil world. (6:03) That makes sense, yeah.
(6:05) And you mentioned earlier you were in design earlier in your career. (6:11) So during the process of figuring out the future and engineering the future, there's (6:16) a need or somebody sees a need for something and takes a chance. (6:20) It sounds like the Blues Brothers took that adventure on, right? (6:25) Well, they did, yeah.
(6:26) And so then earlier in your career, you already were an engineer when you got there. (6:31) Yeah, prior to joining with General Atomics, I did about 16 years doing air launch decoys (6:37) and high-speed, high-altitude targets, mostly for the Navy, but military applications. (6:44) And that's where I really caught the bug.
(6:46) Things that fly, if you goof it up, there's nobody on board. (6:49) So it's just money at the end of the day and off you go. (6:53) But like I say, every aspect of engineering and design is hit with these platforms.
(7:00) And that's what makes it all that enjoyable. (7:03) Yeah. (7:03) I imagine it's pretty complex technology, tying all those sensors, AI, everything (7:08) together to try and make these devices function as planned.
(7:14) Oh, yeah. (7:15) It's a discipline that you don't learn overnight, let's put it that way. (7:19) I think of the early days, things we were producing and chasing them down the runway (7:24) as things were falling off the platform because they weren't quite working right.
(7:28) So where we're at today, it's a big difference. (7:31) So it's not something you learn overnight. (7:34) And an unmanned aircraft is quite a bit different than a manned aircraft.
(7:37) There's things you have to do fundamentally different so that you know exactly what's (7:42) going on inside that airplane because you don't have a human in the cockpit feeling (7:47) that the engine isn't running right or seeing that he's running into bad weather (7:52) or safe separation from manned aircraft. (7:54) So these are all the things you have to bring to the platform that are complexities that (8:01) the manned aircraft doesn't have. (8:03) So when you first start to get through the process of configuring a solution, it makes (8:08) sense that things aren't working so well, pieces are coming off or whatever, and you (8:12) solve those problems.
(8:13) Eventually, though, have you been able to get it to the point where it's pretty simple (8:19) to maintain, pretty simple to operate? (8:22) Or are we still in a very complex situation? (8:26) Well, I think, no, I think it's complex made simple would be the way I would say it. (8:34) We've gotten rid of hydraulics was the first thing we did. (8:37) Everything that moves on the airplane is done through electromagnetic actuators.
(8:41) And I call it an all electric airplane. (8:45) And by doing so, the amount of maintenance just falls. (8:49) Just unbelievable.
(8:50) So to give you an example, one of our customers took one of our airplanes and flew 7,080 hours (8:57) in one calendar year. (8:59) And if you do the math on that, it's 82% of the time that airplane's airborne, airborne (9:05) 82% of the time around the clock. (9:07) And you only get there when your availability is 99% on.
(9:12) And that's what an all electric airplane does for you. (9:15) Interesting. (9:16) You're still burning fuel for propulsion.
(9:18) But I'm just saying the rest of the platform. (9:20) Understood. (9:21) Yeah.
(9:22) Understood. (9:22) So what about the conversation that you like confidentiality and security? (9:29) It's got to be a sensitive subject matter for somebody in your line of work and what (9:34) you do. (9:34) I mean, if I was to go to work at your operation, is there a process that you go through to (9:41) make sure that I'm a good guy and I'm not going to steal your technology? (9:45) Yes.
(9:46) Yeah. (9:47) And depending on what program you're on, you have to get cleared through a lot of (9:51) secret to top secret to special access. (9:54) And that's all a piece of getting read into the programs for sure.
(9:59) So as I would be inside General Atomics, as I go up the ladder of understanding the (10:07) entire system, I guess my clearances have to keep going up and up. (10:10) Is that what you're saying? (10:11) Yeah. (10:12) Depending on what you're doing in the company.
(10:15) But yeah, I mean, if you're in charge of running a whole platform, you definitely have (10:19) to have all the clearances. (10:20) Yeah. (10:21) Usually, like here at Inventionland, back when we were configuring systems, I broke (10:25) systems up so that they couldn't understand what they were doing.
(10:30) And then when it came over, there was like a translation. (10:33) And it keeps technology pieces separated, which just helps to keep security. (10:39) You guys seem to be pushing hard on the future and keep pushing this technology to another (10:46) higher level.
(10:47) And something's got to drive that, right? (10:49) So is that a personal drive of yours? (10:52) Is it something that the owners are saying, no, we're going to keep doing that? (10:56) Or is it your customers demanding even more? (11:00) It's complicated. (11:00) But I would say our owners are pressing us to come up with what's needed out there. (11:07) So there's a huge amount of internal research money that's poured back into the company (11:12) every year so that we can innovate and bring new products forward.
(11:17) And a lot of the platforms now are going into new missions, right? (11:21) Into the maritime role. (11:23) There's no need to have manned aircraft doing these really complex missions out there. (11:27) You can do it unmanned.
(11:28) So we're moving into the maritime mission big time. (11:33) There's, I would say, a multi-domain operation. (11:36) For years, we were over central part of Asia, and the airspace was owned by us.
(11:43) Well, now it's not so much owned by us. (11:45) There's missiles out there that can pop up and grab you. (11:48) So now we have what we call multi-domain operations.
(11:51) So we have special sensors that allow you to look all the way to the horizon from altitude, (11:56) lets you stand off and survives. (11:59) And then when you do want to combat ID something, you send an expendable in. (12:04) So it's a mothership and then a small UAV.
(12:07) So it's unmanned being controlled by unmanned. (12:10) And that way you can have multi-domain operations in what we call contested airspace. (12:15) That makes a lot of sense.
(12:16) So you've got sensors looking out to see what's next, (12:20) then try to identify how to tackle that challenge, right? (12:22) Right. (12:23) Yeah. (12:24) What has been the biggest technological advancement during your time with the company? (12:29) I think our latest would be what we call Sky Guardian, Sea Guardian.
(12:34) And it's our latest next generation MQ-9 platform. (12:38) And this platform was designed from the get-go to have every bit of certification (12:43) that a manned aircraft has so that we can fly in just airspace with any other aircraft. (12:49) So we could file and fly and pretend like you're just any other platform out there, (12:55) manned or unmanned.
(12:56) So this new Sky Guardian, Sea Guardian aircraft, (13:00) the company put considerable money in it, have all the certification. (13:04) And then they took it one step further and designed a radar (13:06) that looks forward as if you had a pilot in the cockpit. (13:10) So now through the windscreen, a pilot could see and avoid other aircraft out there, (13:17) but he can't see through clouds.
(13:19) Now we have a radar in there that can actually see through clouds, (13:23) see just as far as the human eye, (13:24) and then have all that automated and tell the pilot on the ground, (13:28) don't fly here, fly there, so you can avoid traffic. (13:31) So I think the biggest innovation there is that we're integrating MQ-9, (13:37) what we call MQ-9 Bravo, Sky Guardian, Sea Guardian. (13:41) That will be the aircraft that's integrated into airspace just like any other.
(13:45) So it'll file and fly just like a regular manned aircraft. (13:50) And that's a lot of technology that it took to get us there. (13:53) And that's doing what for forces on the ground? (13:56) Well, there's a lot of countries that won't fly a combat aircraft over their crowded cities.
(14:02) And what this does is it allows these aircraft to fly in their airspace. (14:07) So a crowded airspace like anywhere in Europe, (14:09) these airplanes could fly and not have to have special restrictions put on them. (14:13) Very nice.
(14:14) And that extra set of rigor to be just, you know, they're big airplanes. (14:19) They're 13,500 pound gross takeoff aircraft. (14:23) So if one of those comes down, it's a big deal.
(14:26) So it's got to be safe. (14:28) Um, so we've talked a little bit about homegrown observations and identifying (14:35) challenges to come up with new, let's call it new drones that would fit the market needs, right? (14:42) What about when outside technologies developed, like let's say AI, (14:47) and how does that incorporate itself into your world and alter your course of business, let's say? (14:55) Well, I mentioned the Maritime. (14:57) So the Maritime platform has surface search radar on it.
(15:03) It has special sensors to listen to or look for radars. (15:09) So we're looking for radars, we're looking for ships, (15:12) we're looking for any kind of signals coming off of battleships. (15:16) When you put all this together, (15:18) the amount of data that comes off the platform now is just not full motion video (15:22) as it was in the past.
(15:24) Now it's a lot of information that has to get boiled down into something usable. (15:31) And so General Atomics have acquired this company called CCRI, (15:35) but what they do is they provide a common operating picture, (15:39) take all that data and correlate it into something that makes sense. (15:44) So if you've got a thousand ships out there, you can put AI on this (15:48) and weed it down to a dozen things to worry about.
(15:52) And this is where AI on the sensor part is really going to pay off. (15:57) You can weed through what you don't need to worry about (16:00) and focus on ships doing strange things like, (16:04) you know, two ships out in the middle of the ocean side by side. (16:08) You know, ships don't do that.
(16:10) Ships doing zigzag, you know. (16:12) Ships turning off their transponders and turning them back on (16:15) and they turn them back on and now they're a pleasure boat. (16:18) You know, things like this you can catch.
(16:20) If you had to have people doing that, (16:22) it would just be, you'd be overwhelmed with people sitting in front of monitors (16:25) trying to figure all this out. (16:27) That makes sense. (16:28) So this is huge.
That's huge. (16:30) The other place I'd say for AI and autonomy, (16:34) which is going to be really, really big in the future (16:36) for our air-to-air combat aircraft, (16:38) and this is a new program that we're working right now. (16:42) So we're not looking at the ground anymore.
(16:44) We're looking at air-to-air combat. (16:46) So we're shooting air-to-air missiles. (16:48) And you want these things to swarm together (16:52) and not have to have somebody flying them.
(16:55) So you put them into an autonomy mission, (16:57) six, 12, they all talk to each other and they go out as a mesh. (17:01) And now that's where the AI and autonomy really are a multiplier. (17:06) You got one person on the loop telling many aircraft what to go do (17:10) and they go out there and hunt and, you know, give your superiority.
(17:15) And if you lose one out of the six, (17:18) then you still have five you're running. (17:20) That's right. (17:21) And there's nobody on board to worry about when you're done.
(17:25) That sounds like real high-tech. (17:27) Yep. That's called collaborative combat aircraft.
(17:30) And that's a program we've been working on (17:33) about a year now with the US Air Force. (17:35) So super huge for us. (17:36) If you were to think about not so much your company, (17:39) but the industry as a whole, (17:41) what do you think the next biggest area to tackle is going to be (17:46) in the field of technology around this area? (17:50) Well, one area that I think needs to be looked at is hybrid propulsion.
(17:56) And from that, I think it'll be game-changing (17:59) for the amount of endurance that you can get on a specific size of an aircraft. (18:06) The same size and weight, triple the endurance. (18:09) So when you say hybrid, are you saying solar, electric with diesel? (18:15) Or what are we talking here? (18:16) I'm saying a highly efficient direct-inject diesel engine.
(18:21) Very, very efficient. (18:23) Coupled with motors that are 98% efficient, driving ducted fans. (18:30) And I believe that's going to be a game-changer.
(18:33) Three times the efficiency of a buried turbofan. (18:37) So we're looking at how many years before that's reality. (18:40) Well, for us, I'm saying about three.
(18:43) Yeah, we're working hard on it. (18:45) That's great. (18:46) Yeah.
(18:46) It's something new. It's something unique. (18:48) I think we can make it happen.
(18:50) Well, thank you for coming in, Dave. (18:52) Thank you. My pleasure.
(18:53) Well, everybody, that's another edition of Tomorrow's World Today. (18:57) Thanks for tuning in. (18:58) Thanks for listening to this episode of the Tomorrow's World Today podcast.
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