Microbes to Medicine: Infectious Disease Insights with Janssen

Dr. James Merson, formerly of Janssen, explores the complexities of global health solutions. Learn about the research and leadership behind antibiotic resistance and tackling the world's leading diseases.

Transcript

(0:00) Welcome to the Tomorrow's World Today podcast. (0:04) We sit down with experts, world-changing innovators, (0:08) creators, and makers to explore how they're taking action (0:12) to make tomorrow's world a better place for technology, (0:16) science, innovation, sustainability, the arts, and more. (0:21) And now, this week's episode.
(0:24) Before we begin, we'd like to note (0:26) that this interview was recorded in May of 2022. (0:29) Since then, the guest has transitioned (0:30) to a new role outside of Janssen. (0:33) Their insights, however, remain timely and valuable.
(0:36) In this episode, George Davison, (0:37) host of Tomorrow's World Today on the Science Channel, (0:40) interviews Dr. James Merson, who at the time of recording (0:43) was the head of Infectious Diseases Research (0:45) and Development at Janssen, (0:46) a Johnson & Johnson pharmaceutical company based in Belgium. (0:50) James explores the challenges (0:51) of managing a global team of scientists and clinicians (0:53) tackling some of the world's most critical health problems, (0:56) including HIV, hepatitis B, (0:59) and antibiotic-resistant bacteria. (1:01) He emphasizes the importance of curiosity, mentorship, (1:04) and tenacity in navigating the ups and downs (1:07) of scientific discovery.
(1:08) Now here's George. (1:09) Welcome aboard. (1:11) Thank you, George.
(1:11) It's a pleasure to be here. (1:13) I was hoping we could start this podcast today (1:15) with a little background about yourself. (1:18) And tell us about this position that you have.
(1:21) It sounds very important. (1:23) I'm very honored to have the position, George. (1:26) It's what we call a global role.
(1:29) I have scientists and clinicians working with me (1:32) from all over the globe. (1:34) I think that's particularly important. (1:36) I have scientists in Shanghai and in Europe, (1:39) so we work across 16-hour time zone.
(1:42) It's important because people are, (1:46) they've had different trainings and different experiences. (1:49) And when we are coming to try and solve (1:51) some of the most difficult problems facing the world (1:54) and how we can better manage infectious diseases, (1:57) I need those differences in training and experiences (2:00) to come up with the best solutions. (2:03) So these folks around the world (2:05) that are working with you on these very challenging problems, (2:09) how do you interact with them? (2:10) Are you at the point in your career (2:12) where you're overseeing all of this, setting strategy, (2:17) and then they go to work and try to solve the problems (2:20) you're outlining? (2:22) To some extent.
(2:23) I have a wonderful leadership team. (2:26) And what I mean by that is those people (2:27) who report directly to me, (2:29) they too are also very experienced infectious diseases. (2:32) When I'm talking about infectious diseases, (2:34) I'm talking about viral pathogens, (2:37) like human immunodeficiency virus or hepatitis B virus.
(2:42) These have all got high mortality, that is they kill people. (2:46) And what we're trying to do is find ways (2:48) of how we can stop these viruses from killing people. (2:51) We also look after antibacterials as well.
(2:54) So all those nasty bacterial infections you might get, (2:57) which could be a strep throat, (2:58) or it could be an infection in a wound. (3:01) We're looking to develop the next generation (3:03) of antibacterials, not necessarily (3:05) small molecule antibiotics, (3:08) but we're utilizing nature's own weapon against bacteria. (3:12) And these are viruses that specifically target (3:15) and kill bacteria.
(3:16) All right, so you didn't get this career of yours (3:20) when you were in high school. (3:21) So can we go back in time a little bit (3:24) and let's go back to the ages where you're starting (3:26) to learn maybe how to drive a car. (3:29) What did life look like? (3:30) How did you find this world of immunology and biology? (3:35) How did all this come about for you? (3:37) Well, when I was in high school, (3:38) actually I was studying science.
(3:41) I was studying biology and chemistry. (3:43) At that time though, I really wasn't clear (3:45) what I wanted to do with the subjects that I enjoyed. (3:49) And as you can hear from my accent, I came from the UK (3:52) and we tended to focus on three or four subjects (3:55) in high school and I chose sciences.
(3:58) Why? (3:58) Because I enjoyed them. (4:00) Now, as a high school student though, (4:02) I had really no idea how to apply my biology learnings (4:08) about how DNA was replicated, (4:11) how different organisms had different DNA (4:13) that created different beings. (4:16) But when I got to college and I went and got educated (4:21) in the US, small college in Louisville, Kentucky, (4:24) and then I went on to do my graduate degree (4:27) in Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, (4:30) even when I was in college and I majored in biology (4:34) and minored in chemistry, (4:35) I still wasn't sure what I wanted to do then.
(4:38) All I knew was I enjoyed science. (4:42) And at that time, I was considering (4:45) whether I should do medicine or whether I should do science. (4:47) In the end, various reasons why I decided (4:52) to pursue a course in science, (4:55) and that is try and discover new things.
(4:58) But I always wanted to help humanity. (5:01) I could do it directly as a physician (5:03) or I could do it in perhaps a more broader way (5:06) across the globe by inventing medicines. (5:10) And that's really what got me into all this.
(5:13) It was just my passion about trying to really help people (5:17) live and combat their diseases more effectively. (5:21) The self-discovery that you made (5:23) where you came into contact with science, (5:26) was there a teacher or a mentor that really helped you (5:30) to see a future in that direction? (5:33) I think so. (5:34) I think the scientific teachers, (5:38) either at high school or college, (5:41) what they really appreciated was curiosity.
(5:45) And there really wasn't anything such as a stupid question. (5:49) If you asked a question, it was important to you. (5:51) And for those teachers who inspired me (5:54) at high school or college, (5:56) they were prepared to try and help me understand.
(5:59) And as I learned and understood more, (6:03) I just became thirsty for more knowledge. (6:05) And knowledge actually is power. (6:08) And once you really do start to become an expert (6:11) in certain areas, people to look to you for advice.
(6:15) And so in time, as I learned, (6:18) I wanted to be able to share that knowledge with people (6:20) and convince them this was something exciting (6:23) or this is a path that they should pursue. (6:27) Pursue for all reasons, but for me, (6:29) it was always about how could I find a better medicine (6:33) to really protect or treat people more effectively? (6:36) Were the sciences easy for you in high school (6:39) or did you have to work real hard? (6:41) I didn't find it easy. (6:43) And even today, I don't find it easy.
(6:45) And I've had three plus decades at doing this. (6:48) I think in science, (6:50) because there's so many scientists in the globe (6:53) and they're all wanting to make their mark, (6:55) they're all wanting to be individual in their discoveries (6:58) and just staying on top of it, (7:00) staying up to on pace with it is a really tough thing to do. (7:05) And so once again, I think it's that curiosity (7:08) when you're looking through scientific journals (7:11) or you're talking to people (7:12) or you're attending scientific conferences, (7:14) there'll be pieces of information which you go, (7:16) aha, that's really interesting.
(7:18) And if I can draw that bit of information (7:20) from that and that, (7:21) and then start to compile a conjecture (7:24) as to what we think could be a unique way (7:27) of doing something better than that's been done before, (7:31) it's pretty inspiring, (7:32) particularly when you start to do the experiments (7:34) to prove your hypothesis is right. (7:36) Now, the challenge though, in science is, (7:39) more experiments don't work than do work. (7:42) So true.
(7:43) And so I think if you wanna be a scientist, (7:46) you have to be born with the gene of tenacity. (7:49) You have to persevere. (7:51) But I think people persevere (7:53) when they are fed with sufficient frequency (7:57) of being successful.
(7:59) If you're always unsuccessful in your science, (8:01) it's pretty hard to stay determined and keep driving. (8:05) But if you're rewarded every now and then (8:07) by doing good science (8:08) and it looks like you've really got a way forward, (8:11) that's an incredibly powerful reward (8:14) and you wanna get more of it. (8:16) And I think in the pharmaceutical industry, (8:18) given it takes us, gosh, anything from, (8:21) I would say six to 10 years (8:22) when you start a project to get it onto the market, (8:25) and that's really pushing it hard.
(8:28) All those scientists are just craving (8:30) to get those breakthroughs. (8:32) And we sort of like gird each other along the way. (8:34) It's a very supportive environment.
(8:37) Well, that's part of the secret, isn't it? (8:39) So you're not afraid to fail your way forward (8:41) and hopefully you'll have some positive people (8:44) helping you along the way when you fall down. (8:46) Indeed. (8:46) So if we were to reflect on that, (8:49) I mean, there are about 40,000 employees (8:51) at Johnson & Johnson, right? (8:54) Surely you're not all, you know, (8:56) figuring things out the first time around.
(8:59) So failure is something you probably became familiar with (9:03) when you were in high school. (9:04) Do you have any failures that you would be willing to share? (9:09) Oh, goodness. (9:10) Well, I can still say today quite firmly (9:13) I don't like to fail, (9:14) but I think that preparedness to try, (9:17) be courageous and fail is really part of the mix (9:21) that causes you to be a successful scientist.
(9:25) I think when I was in high school, (9:27) I was just doing my laboratory experiments. (9:29) Even then, just following my instruction manual. (9:32) They didn't always work.
(9:34) I hated that. (9:35) I would often stay after to try and get it right (9:38) the next time. (9:39) And luckily enough, (9:40) my teachers were prepared to allow us to do that.
(9:44) I think teachers recognize people who are not just ambitious (9:49) but they can see that spark of willingness to want to learn (9:54) and be courageous in what it takes to learn (9:57) because it is such a challenging thing to do these days (10:01) because there's just so much information out there. (10:03) But when the teachers see that and they can encourage it, (10:07) then I think you start to see people blossom, as it were. (10:11) I agree with you.
(10:12) When I was in high school, (10:14) I couldn't wait for graduation. (10:16) So my learning would stop, (10:17) but that was just the beginning. (10:20) And I loved to learn.
(10:21) And even now, I'll take everything I can get. (10:24) It helps during the problem-solving process (10:27) because like you said, (10:27) you can grab information from all different areas (10:30) and maybe use it in some other way (10:32) that it hasn't been thought of before, (10:35) which provides a solution. (10:36) So I fell in love with science when I was in middle school.
(10:40) And I had a great science teacher who I'll always remember. (10:45) And I had a great Cub Scout master and he loved science. (10:50) So I was very fortunate.
(10:51) But that's another story for another day. (10:54) So knowing what you know today, (10:57) what advice would you give to a high schooler (11:00) they wanted to pursue something in the field of science? (11:04) There is such a variety of science. (11:06) And yet at the same time, because of that variety, (11:09) the magnitude is enormous and it's quite baffling.
(11:12) I think as one starts to ask questions in our younger ages, (11:18) and depending on what answers you get back, (11:20) it will start to direct you down one path or another. (11:24) And I would encourage youngsters (11:26) to constantly ask questions and be demanding. (11:30) If someone can't satisfy you with a good answer, (11:32) go and look somewhere else.
(11:34) Whether it's online or whether it's with a person, (11:37) I always think online these days (11:40) is an extraordinary tool set that we can leverage, (11:44) but you can't believe everything you read online. (11:47) So I would argue that you should be trying to interact (11:51) with knowledgeable people all the time. (11:53) And if they don't have the answer, go to another person, (11:55) but be demanding because at the end of the day, (11:58) your destiny is yours of your making.
(12:01) And I think you can only do that if you ask questions (12:04) to help you navigate where you want to go. (12:08) And be honest with yourself. (12:09) If there's something you don't really like, (12:11) be honest about it and try and find something (12:13) you really do like, because quite frankly, (12:15) the science is just too hard to force yourself (12:18) to do something that you don't like doing.
(12:21) It's just too hard. (12:22) So be honest. (12:23) Yes, I think that goes across (12:26) a lot of different industries and professions.
(12:29) I agree with you. (12:29) When I like to do something, it's not work. (12:32) I'm enjoying it.
(12:33) It might be difficult. (12:33) I may not get it right away. (12:35) I grow frustrated, but like you said, (12:38) tenacity pushes me through the soft spot (12:41) and hopefully I can get back up.
(12:43) And I've seen that lesson again and again in my life. (12:46) It's just great that when I do these podcasts (12:48) and I'm meeting people like yourself, (12:51) that story that you just reflected upon is, (12:55) I've heard that from quite a few very successful people. (12:59) And it's a repeating pattern (13:00) that I think young people need to hear.
(13:03) So they understand it's a natural course of trying things, (13:07) try to find things that you like, (13:09) and don't expect it to work out. (13:11) It's gonna be an up and down trail. (13:13) But if you like it or love it, you'll figure it out in time.
(13:17) And that's a good life. (13:18) It is. (13:19) So let's talk about a pet project maybe.
(13:22) Something that maybe you're working on now (13:24) that is gonna help humanity in the future. (13:27) Can you share something that is exciting (13:30) that maybe would brighten up our audience's minds? (13:35) Gosh, there's so many. (13:36) I think what we're doing in Janssen, Infectious Diseases, (13:40) I really think we're doing cutting edge science (13:43) in so many different ways.
(13:44) And let's just say the easy stuff has been done, (13:47) and don't get me wrong, it's always been very difficult. (13:50) You know, when we first discovered (13:52) that the HIV virus caused AIDS, (13:56) we really didn't have a very good idea (13:57) as to how to manage that. (13:59) But over a couple of decades, (14:02) we got to a place where we actually have converted (14:07) that infection to a lifelong disease, (14:09) which is well managed and people live healthy lives.
(14:13) I think today, interestingly, (14:15) even though the pharmaceutical industry (14:16) was built off the development of antibiotics (14:20) in the Second World War, (14:22) that's where many of the big farmers made themselves. (14:26) As we sit here today, (14:27) we have massive levels of multidrug resistance. (14:31) That is, many of the antibiotics no longer work (14:33) because the bacteria have evolved (14:35) to become resistant to the antibiotics that we so love.
(14:40) So now today, we're looking at different ways (14:42) of how we can combat these bacteria (14:44) because there's more bacteria on this planet than we are, (14:47) and they are prevalent and everywhere. (14:49) And so we have to find a way (14:51) of how we can kill these bacteria safely. (14:53) And so what we have done (14:56) is adopt nature's way of killing bacteria.
(15:00) So there is even more bacteriophage or viruses (15:04) that infect the bacteria themselves on the planet. (15:07) There's about 10 times more bacteriophage (15:09) than there are bacteria, (15:10) and there's more bacteria than there are humans (15:11) on the planet. (15:12) And yet these phage will only infect (15:15) a specific strain of bacteria.
(15:17) So they're very specific in what type of bacteria they kill. (15:21) So if it's something like (15:23) methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus, or MRSA, (15:28) there's a certain set of phage (15:30) which will only kill Staphylococcus aureus bacteria. (15:34) Why is that important? (15:35) Because many of the antibiotics that we take (15:37) kill a lot of other gram-positive bacteria.
(15:41) Our gut is full of gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. (15:45) Most of those bacteria are what we call good bacteria. (15:48) Yet antibiotics are not specific (15:51) in which bacteria they kill, (15:52) and that's why taking antibiotics for your gut is not good.
(15:56) These bacteriophage, though, (15:57) will only take out the offending pathogen. (16:00) So I think this is a pretty exciting new frontier (16:03) for how we're going to manage (16:04) bacterial infections in the future. (16:06) That sounds like a big frontier, (16:09) and with all the different projects (16:11) that your organization's working on.
(16:14) Brainstorming, you utilize that in your operation? (16:16) A lot, a lot, day in, day out. (16:18) Inner group brainstorming helps (16:21) to potentially come up with better ideas, right? (16:24) Yeah. (16:24) Because when you work for an organization like this, (16:27) learning for life is part of the job, fair? (16:31) Absolutely.
(16:32) Well, I hope everybody's learned something today, (16:35) and you've given them something to think about anyway. (16:38) I can't thank you enough for sharing your time with us. (16:41) It's been a pleasure, George.
(16:42) Thanks for listening to this episode (16:44) of the Tomorrow's World Today podcast. (16:48) Join us next time as we continue to explore (16:50) the worlds of inspiration, creation, (16:53) innovation, and production. (16:56) Discover more at tomorrowsworldtoday.com (16:59) and connect with us on social media at TWTExplore, (17:04) and find us wherever podcasts are available.